Good and Welfare -- CorD community
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Recently, CorD has seen a low level of activity, much of it consisting of hostile exchanges between two or three people.
I am in favor of very liberal posting policies on CorD because I find that often people mix legitimate ideas with flaming, and the replies and counter replies sometimes raise important issues. (I tried to bring out some of those that I found in the most recent flamewar/discussion, but my comment was deleted along with most of the other comments on that thread. ;))
But I also recognize that flame wars, or even just constant slamming, carping, bickering, etc. can create an atmosphere in which new people and those who are not involved in the disputes are less likely to participate.
The best solution is to promote a friendly, collaborative approach and "crowd out" flame wars with good discussions.
But maybe we can try another approach, too. What if we enabled registered users -- or users who have been involved with the site for some period of time, or some other sign of commitment to CorD -- to tag/stic posts on the basis of how "flame-y" they are? That would give the community (how many of us are there?) a way to signal our feelings about the posts. The posts that reach a specified threshold of "flame-aliciousness" could also be moved to a special forum for no holds barred, tit for tat, I know you are but what am I... dialogue. Not deleted, just categorized.
There are many tools available: http://drupal.org/project/Modules/category/60
I've said it a few times before, but isn't this what makes drupal useful? The community tools? Why not use them here?
- Matt Noyes's blog
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At some point I will be
At some point I will be building features like that into CorD. Just have to get the time. I'm still waiting to do a major overhaul to this site.
Good Idea
With the exception of Matts post I believe the thread between Negri and I needed to be moved to the "ring area" and deleting the whole war and not just my part was the correct thing to do. We all have our low spots and the fact that Richard Negri will attack each other every chance we get is one of mine. But in fairness what is a flame war. By definition would not the thread between Dondley and I that is still up be an actual flame war. The thread between Negri and was more of two jerks being jerks.So how do we say what is a Flame war. Does Dondleys and my thread not qualify because "it is not a flame if its author seriously intends to advance the discussion". If so than there were parts in the so called Flame War between Negri and I that fit that definition. The thread was not totally reduced to the "I know you are what am I" which in my opinion is what is meant by Flaming. Although Mr. Dondley feels I was attacking his character never did I call him a vulgarity but I cannot say he refrained from it. So does calling me an asshole make our thread a Flame War?? If so why is it still up. Does Mr. Dondley see that some of the discussion was not so "nonsensical" and is worthy of saving?? I would have to guess it was left up because Mr. Dondley feels his responses vindicate his perceived attack on his character so he has left this "Flame War" posted. Am I far off Steve?? If this is indeed the case can we trust ourselves to fairly tag posts flame-y and have them removed off the main site to be buried. I am glad Steve did not delete because I feel that legitimate issues were raised and I want to see them left for others to read and decide for themselves so I would not mark this as flame-y when by definition it is.Steve would not mark this as flame-y for which ever reasons he would care to explain when by definition it is. So will we get a fair representation as we see posts moved to the "ring area".
If how ever it is decided to do so I think the module Matt suggests would work fine and should be used. Funny how I agree with that when I hate Drupal so much isn't it. Or maybe the fact is I do not hate Drupal but feel that we should Build Union,Buy Union and Work Union regardless of what field of Business it is in. You see here at CoD no one is trying to sell Drupal to solicit Union money and I have no qualms about using it. Just as I have no issue with using wordpress on my many sites until the day I use it to pander to Unions for money.Internet Unionism is in its infancy and there are a lot of people and companies going to make a fortune marketing it. Should we be restricted to Prometheus Labors requirement to pay dues which is noble and a good start. Should we not be concerned who is getting the Union dollar. Should we not be now thinking about how we will organize the Internet Tech Companies who are soliciting the Union dollar. Should we not be working on a plan to organize them regardless. Lets hope we do not wait until the money has been sucked out an pocketed by non union Tech Company's. The Unions should NOW be as ambitious as the start ups in this endeavor to promote and make money on Internet Unionism. Unions need to set minimum requirements regarding Union association and membership of Internet Tech companys who are aggressively coming after the Union dollar. The question must be asked of those who solicit the Union Dollar "What have you done for me Lately"
I apologized for that and
I apologized for that and deleted the apology when the flame war was deleted.
It's my opinion that labor
It's my opinion that labor unions should be the master of their own technology and own their own IT shops and set up their own services (and sell it to others). Profits could go to building the labor movement.
The AFL-CIO's LaborWeb program moves in that direction. It's a free service with free hosting available to other unions. Unfortunately, it is not using the right software (Drupal). I have begun making overtures to them to move to suggest they move to Drupal.
One thing I want Prometheus to do (or at least help lead the way) is to develop a distribution of Drupal for labor unions and open source it so anyone can download and use it. But doing that right will take a lot of time and/or money. Neither of which I have, not yet, at least. I have begun making moves in that direction, however.
What if
Without hurting your business or at the point where Prometheus has enough clients to be comfortable you make some of your labor themes free to Local Unions. No one ever disputed that your creations were not very good and labor friendly and are ready now to open source to an extent. Maybe stay away from Internationals and the big boys with money, keeping them as the Prometheus Labor target market, but make the offer of themes to Locals so that they can put up a web presence they and their members can be proud of.I am sure the Locals can find someone in their ranks that can handle Drupal.Having your name on them in a "Donated For Labor By..." would be good advertisement and an expression of your commitment to labor.They fill in the Drupal theme and maintain it and your only sacrifice is the work you invested in the theme. One of your cast aways would probably be better than most unions have. Such as http://www.local157.com or http://www.nyscarpenters.com which is a very committed Union man who wants something better than this mess at http://www.empirestatecarpenters.org or http://www.carpenterlocal370.org He is trying but his talents are not quite there. I am sure he could create a great site with one of your themes.Maybe put together a group of volunteers you can offer that can show them how to sign up with a host and register a domain name and then step away.Perhaps in return these people can become your pool of volunteers to guide others.
let a thousand flame wars blossom
I dunno - I must confess that I find online squabbles to be pretty entertaining sometimes. I wonder if they might attract just as many folks to the site as they turn off?
I think it's worth noting that the fight in question took place on Steve's blog. I think we should all feel free to delete or disable comments on our own blog entries as much as we see fit. If someone else wants to keep an argument going, they can do so on their own blog.
On themes and volunteers and such - I like the idea of adding the basic Prometheus theme to the ones available on drupal.org if it isn't already. But the basic theme really isn't much fancier than others available - in fact, it's very similar to the one used on this site. The reason the Prometheus sites look more "professional" than most homegrown sites is that there's usually a nicely designed banner graphic and color scheme.
As far as volunteers to help guide unions that are setting up or maintaining their own Drupal sites, maybe we could start a forum on this site dedicated to that topic. I could also imagine CoD becoming a meeting place for unions and web site developers that are using Drupal to share ideas, problems, etc.
Unique Banner
"there's usually a nicely designed banner graphic and color scheme." It would be great if perhaps someone could create maybe two Unique banners applicable to each trade which locals within that trade can use just to get themselves up and online with a presentable web site. Are you creating the banners in CS3??Once they are sold on the idea than maybe they can move forward with some designated funding to put into a really great site. The new kids still have to convince many of the old horses that the Internet is the future. These old horses control the purse strings in many locals and if you dangle something free in front of them they might relax a bit.
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Something changed
in me. Before I left for Las Vegas I had a meeting with a delegation of labor leaders from Colombia. They were in DC to discuss the FTA. First there was a press conference held at North Senate Park, second, the group came to the IBT to talk with a group of us in a conference room; journalists were invited to that discussion.
When the labor leaders talked, through their interpreters, something in me shifted. I think it was, perhaps, the first time I was with real-deal heros ... and I mean that sincerely. These people have a sense of heroism that I never came that close to before.
There are tons of news articles about how dangerous Colombia is to trade unionists, how this year alone there is an average of one labor leader killed each week. And with those stats out on the table and our questioning going back and forth, one of us asked if they felt that their lives were in greater jeopardy after coming to the States to tell their story.
The one woman (I forget her name in the moment) who is the Principal Officer of the Hospital and Medical Workers Union leaned back in her chair and gave an uncomfortable smile. She said, "Of course we made it much worse for ourselves and our saftey, but this is our life. We believe that there can be a just and labor friendly Colombia."
For a minute I looked into their faces and realized that any or all them could potentially be dead by the end of the year ... all for fighting for the rights of working people in Colombia and, now here in the US.
Since that day, nothing is so important to me to get on websites and spew my anger at someone angry at me, etc. In the year or so that I know of Dorrough, I have to say he is 100% right in how he explained the flame war ... it was two jerks being two jerks.
For the record: I think Dorrough is a jerk :) But his heart is in the right place, and I always believed that. For the record, I am a jerk for entertaining him in his assaults of me being some labor messiah or whatever the crap he goes on and on about. The reality is that we are passionate about this stuff and when we butt heads, well, we butt heads.
I am not interested anymore in those flame wars (or am I interested in the back and forth about me and my character or motivations; I need not defend what I do and with whom I do it to anyone). Instead, what I am interested in, is finding a way to share the stories of the Colombian workers and labor leaders. I am interested in hearing from workers about what they might do if they were in the same situation as these labor leaders; for instance, would they give up their lives for the union movement? Would they put their families in the line of fire?
No matter how comitted we might be to the union movement in the United States, meeting these people humbled me to realize that flame wars are a waste of time. We have a lot of work to do as a movement here and abroad.
Consider this my sincere apology for my part in it all.
Can anyone find my posts
I have posted but I cannot seem to find them Any ideas where they are. I know I am screwing up somehow. I posted them with the "Post Content" link . Where did I send them